Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Goren: You Don't Know What I Need...

This entire blog post is dedicated to one line in the episode Endgame when Goren says to Ross: "You don't know what I need. And don't tell me who I am. You don't know who I am. And don't tell me how I think."

To me this is such a strong scene for Vincent's character. The way he reveals his feelings - or if you think about it - lack thereof. His anger covered all other emotions. Perhaps he was hiding in his shell for fear of being sought out, revealed, understood, ridiculed for being who he is, etc. You name it, I've thought about it because I love this scene. And when he told Ross not to tell him what he needs, who he is or how he thinks, you have to wonder... In my personal opinion, I don't believe Ross every really understood him. Maybe to a certain point, but he just didn't get him. For me, I saw a lack of trust towards Goren that I hated. I don't think Goren was defensive, per se, but I definitely heard that Goren roar that could be seen as a 'back off' to his own captain. I have to agree with him because, really, who is Ross to assume he knows what Goren needs? His boss? So what.

As a person that is known to be quite complicated like Goren, I too can say it's very frustrating when people pretend to know who I am or what I'm thinking. In fact, I believe I've said some words similar to his before...

I have a slide-show at the bottom of screen caps I took as the scene plays out. There are many pictures of Ross I skipped, but you get the point. The dialogue is as follows (note: all pictures are in order):

Ross: He's toying with you. Now you're personally invested. He's got you exactly where he can control you.

Goren: He's not in control of me. I can handle him.

Ross: No, detective, you don't need this in your life right now.

Goren: You don't know what I need. And don't tell me who I am. You don't know who I am. And don't tell me how I think.

(long silence)

Ross: I'll just tell you this, you're off this case.

(Ross exits the room and Eames goes after him to persuade him to change his mind)

Note: The first picture starts where the title at the top says Endgame.


  1. i love that scene,it was a really intense episode,but a really good one...i understand what you mean,some people claim to know what someone needs,feels,etc...they may understand to a certain extent,but never quite to the point of the person themselves.great post.

  2. Sorry, I have to disagree in a few points.

    I agree to the 'it's very frustrating when people pretend to know who I am or what I'm thinking' statement.

    But Danny didn't!

    I don't understand why Bobby started this argument and reacted so emotional. Of course, the whole topic with his mom and his not knowing. But in this point Danny is right. Bobby is too much involved in the case.

    No, detective, you don't need this in your life right now. That was definitely too much for Bobby. Danny crossed the personal border and Bobby exploded.

    I think if Bobby hadn't, Danny had never take him off the case. Now we need Alex. Her sigh, was perfect. Bobby hadn't control about himself and she has to manage the pile of shards...again!

    You don't know what I need. And don't tell me who I am. You don't know who I am. And don't tell me how I think. This is definitely a great line. But I think Bobby hadn't any answers in this moment either.

  3. UM. interesting post and interesting comments.

  4. If anything when Bobby said those words it only made me feel sorry for him. He definitely had a lot going on in his life at the moment. He was frustrated and lashed out. Who did he have to take it out on? No one. Capt. Ross seemed the perfect object. He would never respond like that to Alex. He avoided her and protected her from his feelings.

  5. greeneyesbell1 - Thanks! I can always count on you. =)

    havers - Ahh, I love when people disagree with me! =) Finally. So... I completely understand why Bobby started this argument. I'm not saying it was right or professional. I'm just saying I get it. He was involved in the case, yes, but I think he held it together pretty damn well (minus the ending where he almost choked him). I don't know, maybe it's just because I didn't like how Ross treated Bobby. I don't know, but telling Bobby what he needs and doesn't need, well I'd think screw you too and let him know it.

    Judith - I'm not really sure what that means... LOL.

    Beverly - Yeah, I agree. I felt sorry for him, too. *sighs* How much more crap can he go through? And I completely agree with your comment about Alex. Nice input. =)


  6. Not sure I did at the time I commented. Needed to think about it but as you and others have said what right had Ross to tell him (Bobby) what he thought but then again maybe he felt sorry for Bobby and wanted to save him anymore pain by taking him off the case but it backfired on him and Bobby lost his temper.

  7. I've always felt that Bobby was a bit unfair to Ross in this scene. It's just a natural thing to say to someone who's mother is in the last stages of a terminal illness, but Bobby was determined to take it wrong. He just made assumptions about Ross's meaning, and they were wrong, unusually for our man!

  8. Judith - Hmm. So you're saying that maybe Ross was trying to protect Bobby? Interesting. Never thought about it like that. That's why I love having these conversations! People bring up points you never thought of before. Thanks!

    val - You have a good point, too. So it's not necessarily that Ross said something bad or inappropriate, but it's that Bobby blew it all out of proportion; getting defensive and taking what Ross said the wrong way when in fact he was just looking out for him? Is that correct?


  9. Sarah. I have often thought Bobby was his own worst enemy at times. This can happen if you've had a tough childhood, you question an awful lot that is said to you and can sometimes 'blow-up' when really people are only thinking of your well-being. Kindness is hard to trust because you are more used to people being 'bad' to you.

  10. Well put, Judith. I couldn't have said it any better.


  11. Jeez, how could I have missed this discussion??

    Anway... I never really liked Ross until season 8 - and I did not like the attitude he showed towards Bobby, HOWEVER I do think he did the right thing, both in "Endgame" (and, later on, in Frame). Bobby needed to be MILES away from Brady, not only because his mother was dying, but the sad thing is - like father, like son - Brady is a great manipulator, and Bobby was not in control at all times. He was walking "on the brink" over and over again in this episode, and sometimes, I think it would've been better for him never to find out the truth about his father.

  12. Judith - You're welcome. =)

    T'Jara - Ha Ha. No worries. It's hard to keep up with every blog post. Well, there's a lot I can argue and agree about, but the one thing I find interesting here is the last sentence. Do you think Bobby would be better off not knowing about Brady? Possibly, but if you ask him, I bet he's say he's glad to know. I know if I were in his position, I'd want to know the truth - even when the truth hurts. And we all know Bobby, no matter how much people think he needed to be miles away from everything, this is Bobby we're talking about. He's not going to distance himself. He's going to work through it no matter the price. It's just him and I don't fault him for it. *shrugs* I will never care for Ross. What he did in Frame was the final straw for me.


  13. I think it would've been better if Bobby never heard about Brady at all. You are right, Bobby wants to know, Bobby needs to know, he pursues the truth. Once he met Brady, it was inevitable. But I think he could've done without ever knowing about his father - he shouldn't have met Brady at all. In Shibboleth, Bobby says something to the effect that sons aren't necessarily like fathers, and I think this holds true to him. Besides, Brady might have contributed his DNA, but really, the father that nutured Bobby was William (?) Goren, not Brady. He still is a defining influence, in spite of what some people might think.

    I'm willing to cut Ross some slack. He came onto Major Case when Bobby was anything but easy to deal with.

    As a role, Ross "combined" Carver and Deakins, and I think he's been misunderstood a lot. He was there to challenge the detectives, but because Bobby sometimes was so personally involved, this didn't go over well.